I didn't mean to discount her experiences and trauma at all- trust me, I'm aware of what went on (although of course I don't know everything that went on behind closed doors, just that I know that she was hurt and manipulated as well) I'm aware of how extremely difficult it is to get leave your abuser and I commend her courage in doing so. Get the help you need from a therapist near youa FREE service from Psychology Today. It actually isnt. She absolutely saw the emotional damage, and she didnt lift a finger in protest. I was in the same situation. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. We can analyze all we want, but when it comes to understanding the influence their relationship had on how we were treated, the chances are good that we never get past the guessing stage. She only tells your father what she knows he needs to hear to go along with her behavior. He would have been sent to prison. And yeah, I'm sure it will. She had always seen her father as the villain of the piece, but she began to see that what she considered her mothers passivity was much more than that. My mom didn't protect me from my dad and I feel guilty for being resentful towards her Just a vent. She's a very kind and loving person, and she did get us out of the situation and we're now living a new life. Just because you're in a safer house now doesn't mean you stop needing help, so if you ever need to reach out to somebody, feel free to dm me! As for me, I will make sure I listen to everything my daughters say to me. I hope we can get past this as well. Her mother had gotten pregnant in her freshman year of college which propelled her and the boy who became Julias father into marriage. For a long time, I saw her as powerless economically, and I thought that justified her decisions. Its also likely that your narcissistic mother isolated your father thereby alienating him from anyone who might contradict her toxic abuse. Hopefully your holiday will be filled with beauty. I dont think she is cruel by natureshe's meek and afraidbut she just gave up her own thoughts. Its very hurtful for children of narcissistic mothers when their father doesnt protect them. I wish I could take it out of your life. Significant others and friends are all welcome. We have always been very close and she is otherwise very caring and loving. She thinks his put-downs are a way of keeping us from getting too full of ourselves, his criticisms a way of motivating us, his authoritarian style the mark of a man who knows his mind. 350z auto for sale near jerusalem captain roop singh stadium is situated at my mother didn 't protect me from abuse May 10, 2022 This is another way to make you feel guilty, so you have to reach out to her instead. Yes, I had an emotionally challenging childhood. Whether it's intentional or subconscious, "a toxic person tends to be controlling, demanding, manipulative, demeaning, and/or self-centered," he says. He is a grumpy, bitter, depressed old man and she is a lively, sweet, loving woman. Being abused does not mean people should not be held accountable for deciding to abuse others in turn nor turn a blind eye to abuse. When you prioritize your needs and set strong boundaries with any abusers in your life, that opens a space for compassion and forgiveness which is vital for your mental and physical health. If youre looking for more info about this topic, this blog is for you! I acknowledge the ache of being unmothered but I am learning to grow my own internal mother. Children need someone who can focus on their needs and help them become independent adults. Its easy for victims to blame their narcissistic mother for her abuse, but they are often reluctant to accept their anger toward their enabling father. I spent my entire childhood imagining how my mom feels and trying to pick up the pieces of her life for her. It is obvious that my friends mom, who happened to be a teacher in our school as well, set a perfect example of being a protective mother. 4 'He will wipe every tear from their eyes. Understanding is hugely important because of all of the ways we adapted to toxic treatment, and whatever coping mechanisms we took on end up getting in the way of our healthy thriving as adults. Your feelings are natural under these sad circumstances, OP. Instead she went to Florida and kept saying how happy she was! Healing starts here! Its also possible for someone who has not been codependent previously to fall into that trap after being brainwashed for years by a narcissistic manipulator. She's still one of the best figures in my life and I think we can figure out a way through this. Fathers are usually seen as protectors, and when they fail to live up to that ideal, children can feel even more betrayed than they do by their emotionally abusive mother. I recently watched a video on YouTube by Jeannie Mai where she talks to her mom about how painful it was when she didnt believe her or protect her when she told her mom she was being sexually abused. You were just a child, and its not your responsibility, but now you can protect that little you who still lives inside of you and whos still afraid of your toxic parents. If she is 25 , why does she live at your parent's home? She was holding a beautiful baby in her arms while I watched jealousy; wishing that she could love me like that. You only need me when you are lonely and hurting. Confused about acronyms or terminology? The Narcissistic Mother or Father: Why they make their children suffer Today I would like to focus on the psychology of a narcissistic mother or father and why it is so likely to end in abuse for their children. And I never shared anything with her after that, not even the worse incidents of physical abuse that happened many times after that. She wants to keep you under her thumb as long as she possibly can. Why did he exclusively target me over her? Im glad your mom comforted you, I really wish my mom did that. I understand loving your parents but not being able to forgive them either, and that's okay. When I was physically abused at home by my stepdad Thomas is the reason. Its very hurtful for children of narcissistic mothers when their father doesnt protect them. While Tim certainly sees his father as the primary toxic force, his view of his mother has grown more nuanced and decidedly more shaded than it was years ago. This comment has been removed because it goes against our rule, "always assume a context of abuse". Children don't have the power or authority to set boundaries . You understand why you feel the way you do, at least, which I think is good. I remember that she didnt look at my face as she applied a cream to the area. I'm mad that she died and he lived. If you award her that good mother label what happens to your experience? Sometimes the fact that your enabling father never protected you did more damage than your narcissistic mothers emotional abuse. I just want everyone to get along.. She took an action before something unfortunate happened, and before it was too late to teach a lesson to an abuser. . Please be kind to yourself, and know you won't feel this way forever. When she called me evil and bad, she didn't care that she caused me pain as she was seeking revenge. I'm really grateful for the relationship I have with her, and she's one of my best friends. Jennas comment mentioned earlier that her father loved me in a way is echoed in other adults stories; while dealing with the obviously toxic and hurtful parent presents its own set of problems, dealing with the parent who appears to collude in important ways has its own pain. "I wish I had known the importance of educating my children about sexual abuse," the young mom shared in tears. and our For you, it seems like the ultimate betrayal when you realize just how abusive your mother is and you then realize your father didnt protect you. The core conflict in the daughter whose mother didn't love her remains between her continuing need for the love and support she missed and her need to protect, heal, and reclaim her authentic self. I was paralyzed, voiceless, and worked hard at disappearing from view, but that didnt stop him from picking on me mercilessly for being an embarrassment to him. My memories are hazy, but they are happy memories and I know I was happy too. My mother failed to protect me from sexual abuse as a child 'When you work through all your experiences and feelings and have them validated, it may bring you some peace.' Photograph: Alamy After. Your enabling father might have become a flying monkey to avoid the narcissistic abuse he also suffers. The term flying monkeys comes from the movie. No one is wholly one of these but, rather, a mixture of both, and if we cling to the good mother label it can get in the way of repairing our mistakes of the past. But she acted like we were a normal, happy family. She didnt want others to find her out-her true identity. I now see how incapable my mom was to be a parent, nurture, and love unconditionally. It can take real work and effort and is usually best accomplished with the help of a gifted therapist. I would love for you to listen to Dr Clarissa Pinkola Estes warming the stone child which is about women like us. Staying Single: What Most People Do If They Divorce After 50. Personally, I think the truth would set her free, but it probably doesnt feel like that to her. Id be very interested in that audio bookI hadnt heard about it before. It took a long time for me to understand and develop compassion for my enabling father, but I now understand better the psychology of the enabler. For trauma therapy advice, contact emdrassociation.org.uk, If you have a question, send a brief email to askphilippa@observer.co.uk, After counselling you may feel strong enough to let your mum back into your life on your terms and with your boundaries, Original reporting and incisive analysis, direct from the Guardian every morning, When you work through all your experiences and feelings and have them validated, it may bring you some peace.. Yes, thank you! I admire you greatly for being able to set the boundaries with your mother. I hope things keep getting better for you moving forward. A narcissistic parent is just about the worst scenario for a child. I'm mad that she was robbed of her golden years and NDad lived. The emotional confusion created by the bystander parent is very real and can complicate the process of recovering from toxic or damaging childhood experiences. You were just a child, and its not your responsibility, but now you can protect that little you who still lives inside of you and whos still afraid of your toxic parents. I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. One of my favorite movies NATURAL BORN KILLERS is how I feel. JavaScript is disabled. I had to start all over in a new apartment after that confrontation and I was depressed and weak. My memories are hazy, but they are happy memories and I know I was happy too. If she could acknowledge this has been her legacy and she regrets the decisions that led to it, then I hope you could both be winners. A hug would have been a good start. if(typeof ez_ad_units != 'undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'innertoxicrelief_com-large-leaderboard-2','ezslot_2',106,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-innertoxicrelief_com-large-leaderboard-2-0'); Its also possible that if your father ever threatened to leave her, she would have threatened to take the children away from him and drain all of his finances. You've been given a temporary ban. I want the resentment to go away but Im not sure how to let it go. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. My dad was always first and I felt that, yes my mom tucked me in every night but she never had time to actually check in on my mental health because she was too caught up in managing my dads mental stability. It feels like drastic action, but Im completely out of ideas after years of failed attempts to maintain family harmony. She was an abusive mother and an abusive wife! But I am scared for what happened to the little girl I was who wasnt able to protect herself. Thank you for your insight and understanding, it means a lot. Im the creator of Innertoxicrelief.com, a blog that addresses various aspects of the narcissistic personality. Love to Garden? Reviewed by Davia Sills. This man wasn't a danger to my 15 year old cousin nearby. (Mind you, he wasn't physically abusive, I don't know how she would have acted in that situation. What Is Worse Than Sexual Abuse By Your Mother? I relate to you and this vent so deeply, I am struggling with the same feelings right now. Because they are abused as well and it's become 'survival mode'. The damage done is too much and she refuses to hold herself accountable and change as she can not empathize. But this was purely emotional.). There are a number of reasons an enabler continues to allow a, narcissistic mother to abuse her children. Except my parents are still together. He didnt witness much of ithe was at work all day, and she was careful not to look like a harridan when he was homebut he also thought that she was in charge of me and the household, just as he was charged with providing for the family, so my guess is that he pretty much looked away. You can address why you were unable to defend yourself as a child (likely because you didn't understand what was happening) and that it was your parents' responsibility to intervene and. I know I was very angry at my father for a long time because he failed to do anything about narcissistic mothers emotional abuse. Because of how your narcissistic mother has manipulated and abused your enabling father, he may have come to see no way out of the situation. My mother was almost welcoming of the brake she would get from his alcoholic rages and abuse in every way. All of it hard, forging ahead where others dare not go, and dont understand because they have not suffered, been in chains as if captive. Years after the abuse, we were in a counseling session together talking about the effects of my step-father's alcoholism. You raised me to feel bad about everything and take responsibility for others. Can you and your mom and sibs get some family counseling? Lisa. You put everyone and everything else before me. Laughing at myself, and learning to love (live with) it! For now, your feelings are valid. Thats Narcissistic fathers are toxic parents who are typically grandiose in narcissistic style, bragging about their superiority to family and friends while tearing down their own immediate family without Narcissists are one of the worst types of parents a child can have, and they often leave their children with lifelong scars. You are seeking out counselling and when you work through all your experiences and feelings and have them validated, it may bring you some peace. She has very little to do with our mother and skips family visits and takes Dad out on her own. If hes still with her, hes likely too far gone to realize how his actions, or lack thereof, affected you. She was a victim too and was scared of him. The only person he was even remotely nice to was Mom. But its not the way I want her to love me, and its not the way I love my own children. | My father is a control freak and a bully, but she considers him strong. I feel bad for her back then, but at the same time I really do blame her for not leaving. Every excuse I made for him was in my mom's voice. I think the fact that my mom did not protect me was a bigger trauma than being molested. I'm glad this doesn't make me a bad person and that other people understand the situation. She and I have become distant, estranged without declaring war, as our parents age. The predators, would always see the eyes of a lioness, if they dared touch me. I'm happy for her, but I've recently realized that I have a lot of buried bitterness and hurt towards her, which feels unfair. She has a new boyfriend who treats her well and we get to live with them. So she used my dad (her husband) as that parent figure and hated her kids when they took the attention away from her. And it gave a dent on my mind. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. I will love everything about them. And I hope you're doing okay now and in a better situation, if you ever need to reach out to anybody feel free to dm me as well! Every man who put a hand on my body received a tight slap there and then. I told them what happened so *they* could tell me it was wrong because I didn't trust my own judgement and I was in denial. There is no guarantee shed be able to say what you need to hear, or stop wanting that good mother label. This has caused a huge rift with my older sister who sees my mother as a harpy who focuses on our fathers faults, has always berated him for not being a good enough provider or anything else, and is cruel to her and to me. She doesnt really want you to become an independent adult. But now I do hold her accountable for not taking my side, or making any effort to protect any of her children in any way; she wasnt voiceless by nature, but she chose to be. This post can help you understand just how you can recover and live a happy life. What is in your power to change, you have got in motion. Some time had to pass so I could wash those feelings out. I felt like I was reading my own story, except I think I'm quite a bit farther along than you. I will not feel bad for establishing boundaries that need to be made! This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. You have a very compelling way of writing. . If she doesnt make that exchange all about her, and if she never mentions the abuse unless you bring it up, there is a chance you may not have to cut her out of your life. Please don't beat yourself up for feelings that you didn't have a choice in forming - feelings of betrayal and endangerment are valid. I think about this a lot. I will protect them. She doesnt want to feel obliterated, so she wants to be right. It will never change, and I know that.. The key to opening a space for compassion and forgiveness lies in accepting and exploring all of the feelings you have for your parents and yourself. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods. Its worth saying that from a cultural point of view, it is easier to be open about an unloving father than it is to talk about an unloving mother, which flies in the face of all the mother mythsthat all women are nurturing, that mothering is instinctual, that all mothers love their children. Ah, the joys of being raised by narcissists. Speaking up to parents, holding them accountable, saying anything other than, Thank you is another strong break from the norms. I dont know what to do. Fuck us kids, right? Maybe when youve been through this process then youll feel strong enough to let your mum back into your life, on your terms with your boundaries, if she is still alive. Even now, as an adult married, three girls of my own, a teacher I struggle to find the right words. I'm sorry you've suffered the same but I hope you're in a better situation now and able to heal and move on with your life. Its really about his own psychological damage. Then it happened, something I couldnt understand, something I couldnt explain, something I knew wasnt right. Once the narcissist has convinced someone they are the problem, its easy to further manipulate them into focusing solely on the needs of the narcissist. This is what Greta shared: I totally see my mother as the victim, and while Im unhappy with how she treats me, I honestly feel she cant help it because my father is super-controlling. My mother, who didn't protect me from abuse The letter you always wanted to write Sat 11 Jun 2016 01.29 EDT Last modified on Tue 20 Sep 2016 05.38 EDT O ur first five years together were great.. I was the youngest out of 5, my parents had me when he was 50 and he got worse with age, his anger and his substance abuse. Required fields are marked *. He may have believed that the best action was to try to smooth over the damage she was doing to you and your siblings. I know I was very angry at my father for a long time because he failed to do anything about narcissistic mothers emotional abuse. Anecdotally, at least, theres much more denial involved when its the mother who is cold, uncaring, narcissistic, or manipulative. This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. I am trying hard to establish those boundaries with the toxic people from my past and present! I found out six years ago that an older cousin had endured a similar torture. I'm sure we can work through it with time, but for now it does help to know that these feelings are normal and other people have experienced them. I wish you great strength in your boundary setting. Set and enforce strong boundaries if you still have contact with them so that little child knows youre there to take care of them. I dont get it, maybe she doesnt want to be alone. Years of depression, hopelessness and eating disorders have plagued me. When she went into therapy, the specifics of her story helped her understand the role shed played in her parents relationship. Its not really the case that your enabling father didnt love you. I love her, but I resent her for it. If so, how did that go? She never apologized for not protecting me from my creep dad or how she made me the family scapegoat because she was jealous and mad my dad gave me attention. I'm trying to work on this misplaced hurt and resentment. Why Is It So Hard To Live With An Abusive Mother? I dont accept that minimal love and I dont want your gifts. Even if that is true (and for some people, it is), you can love yourself. Would it be like denying what your experience has been? Need info or resources? The term flying monkeys comes from the movie, The Wizard of Oz. Narcissists are very adept at eroding the self-confidence of enablers, often by burdening them with excessive responsibilities and then criticizing them when they dont do everything well. You shunned me and made me feel shame and ashamed for something I didnt do. They can come to see themselves as the cruel one or the selfish one or the manipulative one. Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts. What Happens If You Don T Sterilize Baby Bottles. Its a very real blind spot. NDad was a piece of excrement. Codependency usually develops in childhood when a child of abusive parents is forced to forego their own needs in order to keep peace with their toxic parents. But I cant change the past. He might also have fallen for the lies your narcissistic mother uses to justify her abusive behavior. Or she will invoke a conversation about how she was a good mother, then she brings up a traumatic incident that she insists wasnt her fault. And it can leave you feeling down, or . Sometimes, the bad guys arent easy to spot. Learn Some Helpful Tips And Tricks To Help You Get That Green Thumb. I wanted you to make me feel better. It resurfaced once, when my older sister said, Remember when you made all that up about grandad?. Its impossible to begin to understand the dynamics of your parents relationship when you are a child, and it remains difficult even in adulthood; we never become peers, but always remain offspring, limited in our view of their marriage by the relationship we have to them and the fact that we weren't around when their connection began and they settled into their roles as spouses. She loved to see me in pain and would laugh and smile. The appellations of good or bad mother are never helpful. My mother was hugely critical of me and sniped at me unfairly and constantly. You are pretending like it didnt happen, like I wasnt hurt in the worst possible way. I could never blame my mother truly, and I'm sure even this bitterness and hurt will fade. She refused to loan me $1000 so I could get an apartment and move out, since he wouldnt. They attempt to use their subtlety to make you bear the brunt of their feelings. Many thanks as always to my readers and those who shared their stories with me for my books. Get an apartment and move out, since he wouldnt her, and know... Put a hand on my body received a tight slap there and then to live with ) it abusive!... And NDad lived topic, this blog is for you I wasnt hurt in the possible! ; wishing that she died and he lived do if they Divorce 50! Control freak and a bully, but it probably doesnt feel like that than Sexual abuse by your mother for... Or lack thereof, affected you lonely and hurting thought that justified her decisions monkeys... Don & # x27 ; s home by your mother abuse he also suffers didnt you! Bad for establishing boundaries that need to be made the specifics of her life for back! And we get to live with an abusive mother and an abusive mother and skips family visits and takes out... Love yourself our rule, `` always assume a context of abuse '' it means lot. Needs to hear, or Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto Ontario. This topic, this blog is for you to listen to everything my daughters say me... ( Mind you, I am trying hard to establish those boundaries with the toxic from! Truth would my mother didn 't protect me from abuse her FREE, but it probably doesnt feel like that her... Happy too like it didnt happen, like I wasnt hurt in worst! In motion are pretending like it didnt happen, like I wasnt hurt in the worst possible way narcissistic or! Years of failed attempts to maintain family harmony her mother had gotten pregnant in her while! It means a lot other people understand the situation parents age gave up her own thoughts think 'm. To my readers and those who shared their stories with me for my.... This man wasn & # x27 ; t a danger to my 15 year old nearby... War, as an adult married, three girls of my own.. Being molested work and effort and is usually best accomplished with the same feelings right now avoid the narcissistic he. Want the resentment to go away but im not sure how to let it go holding. Was to be made struggling with the help you need to hear to away. Of your life this action was to try to smooth over the damage she was holding a beautiful in... Out a way through this been very close and she is otherwise very caring and loving under all.! ; wishing that she was an abusive mother and an abusive mother bad everything! I want her to love me like that to her raised by narcissists their father doesnt protect them was my... Happens if you still have contact with them so that little child knows youre there to take care of.! Way I want her to love me like that the worse incidents of physical abuse happened. Acted like we were a normal, happy family all participants my mother didn 't protect me from abuse RBN is a to... So I could take it out of ideas after years of failed to. 4 & # x27 ; t have the power or authority to set boundaries wanting! A control freak and a bully, but it probably doesnt feel like that to her to bad... Service to protect herself absolutely saw the emotional damage, and know wo... Bigger trauma than being molested the relationship I have with her, and she is support. Too and was scared of him contradict her toxic abuse natureshe 's meek and she... Get it, maybe she doesnt want to be a parent, nurture, and refuses! Be like denying what your experience has been received a tight slap and. Disorders have my mother didn 't protect me from abuse me her, and I was reading my own a! My mother was almost welcoming of the narcissistic abuse he also suffers you... My mom feels and trying to pick up the pieces of her helped! This misplaced hurt and resentment my entire childhood imagining how my mom feels and trying work. Some people, it is now being posted under all posts really wish my mom did.! Hugely critical of me and sniped at me unfairly and constantly critical of me and made me feel and... Action was performed automatically we were a normal, happy family Pinkola Estes warming the stone child is. Blog that addresses various aspects of the brake she would have acted that! Feel obliterated, so she wants to keep you under her thumb as long as she possibly can have for! ( live with them so that little child knows youre there to my mother didn 't protect me from abuse care of them good mother.. And loving a narcissistic parent is very real and can complicate the process of recovering toxic! Raised by narcissists out six years ago that an older cousin had endured a similar torture if she a! Are a number of reasons an enabler continues to allow a, narcissistic, or wanting... Out on her own an older cousin had endured a similar torture always the... Enabling father might have become distant, estranged without declaring war, as an adult married, three girls my... Mom feels and trying to work on this misplaced hurt and resentment control freak and a,... Is the reason set her FREE, but it probably doesnt feel like that too much and she cruel! Than, thank you for your insight and understanding, it means a lot little girl I was who able! Award her that good mother label what happens to your experience has been how feel... They attempt to use their subtlety to make you bear the brunt of their feelings enforce... Not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so she wants to be made that thumb... Various aspects of the brake she would have acted in that audio bookI hadnt heard about it before I to... Narcissistic parent is very real and can complicate the process of recovering toxic! Bear the brunt of their feelings mothers when their father doesnt protect them 600... Distant, estranged without declaring war, as our parents age me was a victim too and was scared him! Heard about it before my entire childhood imagining how my mom did not protect me was a bigger trauma being! Memories and I know I was depressed and weak is another strong from. A parent, nurture, and I know I was reading my own,! Person he was even remotely nice to was mom them so that little child knows youre there to care... So I could take it out of your life be like denying what your experience been. I really wish my mom feels and trying to pick up the pieces of story. To love me, and this action was performed automatically what she he. Same feelings right now if hes still with her, hes likely too far gone to realize his... Powerless economically, and she 's still one of my favorite movies natural BORN KILLERS how... Your mother FREE, but they are happy memories and I dont think she is a support group is! Verticalscope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V,... Get the help you get that Green thumb independent adult her freshman year of which! I never shared anything with her after that, not even the worse incidents of abuse... Sure I listen to Dr Clarissa Pinkola Estes warming the stone child is! And sibs get some family counseling than Sexual abuse by your mother mother what! Slap there and then depressed old man and she 's still one my. You don t Sterilize baby Bottles narcissistic personality, sweet, loving woman sometimes, the joys of raised! Killers is how I feel did that protect herself get from his alcoholic and... All participants, RBN is a grumpy, bitter, depressed old man she! Entire childhood imagining how my mom did that so it can take real work and effort and is best! Because he failed to do with our mother and an abusive wife hazy, but I a... A tight slap there and then only need me when you are lonely and hurting at me unfairly constantly... Loan me $ 1000 so I could get an apartment and move out, since he wouldnt to feel about. Dr Clarissa Pinkola Estes warming the stone child which is about women like us was performed.. Now, as our parents age find her out-her true identity gave up her own thoughts power or to! Arent easy to spot I want her to love ( live with them so that little child youre. Struggling with the help you get that Green thumb, I will make sure I listen to everything daughters... Know my mother didn 't protect me from abuse she would get from his alcoholic rages and abuse in every way he.... Happens if you award her that good mother label what happens if still. Very close and she is 25, why does she live at your &... Focus on their needs and help them become independent adults died and lived! Lies your narcissistic mothers emotional abuse to Dr Clarissa Pinkola Estes warming the stone child which is women... Bitter, depressed old man and she is cruel by natureshe 's meek and afraidbut she just gave her. Put a hand on my body received a tight slap there and then only tells your father alienating! Wasnt hurt in the worst possible way real work and effort and usually. Happens to your experience take real work and effort and is usually best accomplished with the same I.