I always listen as motors start to hear if they timing rattle, drive belt whine, lifter tap and whatnot.. A short rattle like your half second one may be more of a nuisance than an indication of a soon to be major failure. Also, do not use an impact wrench to tighten the mounting bolt. Once there is sufficient oil pressure created in secondary chain tensioners, they provide operating tensions to timing chains and the rattling stops. Like I said this is our first Subaruwe purchased it due to the claims of "long term reliability"and now with 2500 miles this has me concerned if it isn't addressed. If it breaks or jumps while driving, the pistons will be damaged from contact with the valves. I haven't had this with mine before, but I have had some lifter tick on cold starts this winter that I haven't heard before, are you sure it isn't that? We can't say which type of connection is better but in recent years more and more manufacturers choose chains when they engineer a new engine. The possible cause could be the variable valve timing control (VTC) actuator is defective. It is a known issue in Ford products, and Ford has rolled out a series of recalls on their newer models to address the issue. The engine timing chain is very weak it stretches over time, and ultimately snaps. And since timing chains should be installed properly, consider bringing your car to a certified mechanic. After the truck has sat overnight, that oil moves down to the bottom of the oil pan, forcing the cam phasers to start without enough lubrication. i can confirm the rattle on start up is "considered normal" by subaru for start up. This can happen in 1 mile or in 20,000 miles. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of the tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not Auto Repair Guys. Since every new BMW includes complimentary factory-recommended maintenance through BMW Ultimate Care, its easy to start off on the right foot. Engines need perfect timing for optimal work. E46 Fanatics Forum is not in any way affiliated with Bayerische Motoren Werks AG, VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. wish subaru would have thought how much this noise would bother customers and how much it makes the car sound like " sh*t on startup. Becomes increasingly noticeable, especially . The oil feed passageways clogging was a common issue in the past. It was very cold this morning and hadn't been used since day before but not sign of rattle. Cold Start Rattle - Your Timing Chain is stretched! Functional cookies help to perform certain functionalities like sharing the content of the website on social media platforms, collect feedbacks, and other third-party features. 0:00 / 4:21 ENGINE NOISE RATTLE COLD START OR ALL THE TIME. Dmitry has been an editor and author at Cararac.com since 2015. Lexus says this is normal. 10. Fresh oil filter? over time, chains stretch a little and this provides them with the opportunity to be louder than they usually are; when a chain is stretched, it can hit the plastic shoe that is used to direct it in the timing system; also, the stretched chain will hit other parts of the engine including metal parts and this will sometimes create bad rattling; when the chain is cold, it can be OK, but after warming up, it may start rattling because after this it stretches even more; of course, the tensioner is there to help solve this problem and rattling can only occur when the tensioner is no longer capable of keeping the chain in optimal condition; when the chain is too stretched, it can just jump and change its position which will have bad consequences for the engine. What can go wrong? BMW says the timing chains on the the N63 have been found to been found to stretch and wear out prematurely, resulting in premature valvetrain wear and reduced engine performance., The engine timing chain and oil pump drive chain module limited warranty extension to 7 years/70,000 miles (as determined by the vehicles original in-service date) for defects in material and workmanship applies to eligible US-specification BMW vehicles that are registered, operated, and have their covered repair . and have more faith than I doconsider me from Missouri right nowyou know "Show Me!" 19. One of the things I love about Fords is that they offer these customer satisfaction programs to solve issues. Hello, my 2011 3.8 has a rattling sound upon startup, started out just on dead-cold starts but now at 90k every time. What we know is that a lot of Ecoboost owners are complaining about the same rattle. I've seen people mention that they were able to do this and no there's no oil leak and the tensioner is brand new. Allow the engine oil to drain from the VTC system by not starting the engine for at least six hours. The 3.0T is actually based off the Audi 3.2 V6 with significant changes. I wonder if the noise would go away if the car was running a more robust 5W30 oil. From what ive seen so far, a little rattle on start up is acceptable with these cars. This procedure does not require the complete removal of the cam chain and associated parts, so repair time is shorter. My name is Zachary Drumm! The electrodes and porcelain can reveal short- and long-term problems if you know where to look. Proper installation is essential to ensure that your lights do not interfere with other drivers. We have a 2012 Ford Expedition with the 3.5L Engine. Advertisement cookies are used to provide visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns. 32. Only really notice it in lower gears as higher gears at that rpm the wind noise masks it. Since I know about the warranty (I also have a 2009 JSW 2.0 TDI with 330,000 miles :-D) I looked closely at the 3.0 warranty. Remedy: Mistakes made can result in costly comebacks. Just thought I'd pass my experience on to others that may have the same issue. 1 cylinder. I took it into a local mechanic shop and they diagnosed the issue as a timing chain rattle. Have an assistant hold the camshaft/VTC actuator assembly steady on the padded workbench with an open-end wrench. Replace the VTC actuator. This should resolve the cold start rattle. 37. Oct 11, 2022 #1 My 2006 Colorado has timing chain rattle at startup for just a few seconds then it's fine. If it's all about a slightly stretched chain, then nothing to worry about. Reinstall the auto-tensioner (chain case) cover. Check "Remember Me?" No consequential damage is to be expected. Once you hear the engine timing chain rattling, you should immediately show the vehicle to a good specialist. This helps car owners understand when they need to repair this unit or at least pay more attention to how it works. This procedure is in an outline format so you can also use as a checklist for the repair. We can't say for sure whether you can drive with a rattling chain or not. Also the rattle is only the first half a second after start. Recent motor rebuild, so a new pump was installed, right?, New tensioner: what brand? Rotate the crankshaft in the direction of engine rotation (clockwise) two full turns. check out the. JavaScript is disabled. Start the engine and listen to the front of the engine near the timing chain cover while the engine remains cold. When installed and rotated this way the VTC actuator will not lock. that is normal Every V6 that has multiple timing chains under the front cover make this noise. It developed a rattle, so we immediately pulled the valve cover. 5. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. About Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers Terms Privacy Policy & Safety How YouTube works Test new features NFL Sunday Ticket Press Copyright . Now, my engine is five years older than this, so we know that the cam phaser rattle isnt a new issue. In most cases, the pistons will meet the valves and the construction will just get stuck. Rattle in the Engine During Startup or Idling. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Reinstall the EVAP canister purge valve bracket. These cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc. I doubt it is a heat shield rattling as I had a similar issue on that front years ago on my Explorer that was remedied with a large hose clamp (well out of warranty then). Reminds of the noise you get during the first start up after an oil change when there is valve clatter briefly before the pump repressurizes the system. The vehicle has had cold start rattle for a second or two since 50k mi. You might try adjusting it. '07 - 3.6l SRX RWD, '16 - 2.5l Subaru Outback, '95 - 4.3l S10 pu. It gradually goes away after the engine warms up to normal temp. The cookie is set by the GDPR Cookie Consent plugin and is used to store whether or not user has consented to the use of cookies. Try adding a liter of straight 50 or 60 weight oil and see if that helps. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. I initially thought I had some sort of timing chain issue (and that may still be the source of the noise given the history of this motor). Rattling Sound on Starting the Engine or Idling. Unless it's throwing codes or rattling for a minute on startup it's just the way this engine is. The bypass valve is to bypass the filter if it becomes plugged. It explicitly says the "Valvetrain" and fully assembled "long block" are covered. The FB engine has been out since 2011, so in my opinion they have had plenty of time to iron out these issues. Have checked forums and found answers regarding cold start up and timing chains etc. Replaced: primary timing chain, secondary timing chains, exhaust and intake phasers, main timing chain tensioner, every gasket/o-ring/seal in the process following FordTechMakuloco's 4-Part Youtube videos. 1 on the camshaft with several layers of electrical tape. The solution is fairly simple: hold the gas pedal down for 2-3 revolutions of the engine when starting on your initial start-up. Do you hear a loud engine rattle that lasts about two seconds? Required fields are marked *, How To Stop The Cold Start Rattle By Depressing The Gas Pedal. Clean the head cover contacting surfaces. While the compressed air is being applied, rotate the actuator by hand to the unlocked position. 23. The free repair of the 21B10 expires on January 1st, 2023. Now the Toyota TSB only replaces the Cams for the issue, not the chain and tensioner. Some folks have described it as a chain rattle. The chain may suddenly break at any moment. Using the instructions here at nicoclub, we pulled it apart, to check the tensioner. Reinstall the cylinder head cover, tightening the bolts in three steps. Most OE spark plugs have a life of more than 50,000 miles, thanks to electrodes that contain precious metals like platinum and iridium. 45. Feb 4, 2013 Well if its under 50 degrees I hear that rattle behind the timing on first startup overnight for maybe 3 seconds then goes away no cel no performance issues. How many miles does a BMW timing chain last? Technical resources to help diagnose and repair engine-related service issues. I've scoured the forums and can't find hardly anyone that gets this like I do. The only other 'normal' sound I remember my 800GS (also a '13) making was the assembly for the handlebar lock, it would rattle with some engine vibrations inside it's housing. 2. 31. Come join the discussion about M performance, turbo kits, engine swaps, builds, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); How To Sell a Car: Safety Certification Ontario, Selling a Car Toronto: Curbsiding/Curbsiders, Selling a Car: Vehicle Ownership Registration Ontario. In the best case, you wont gain anything. GEN 2 (2017-2020) Ford F-150 Raptor Forums, Ford Raptor Engine Discussion and Performance Mods, 2018 with PRX93 tune engine stuttering at altitude, Engine stumble under light boost on freeway - code P0301, Ford F-150 Raptor General Discussions [GEN 3]. Apply clean engine oil to the mounting bolt thread, then install the mounting bolt on the actuator. i have it also on my 2.5 legacy. The quote stated that they would replace both Cams and the timing chain and tensioner. Sure enough, the timing chain was actually loose. BMW issues a service bulletin for models powered by the N63 4.4 liter V8 engine. Would like to do that test myself. sometimes it goes on for about 15-20 seconds or more . Unfortunately, any broken part in the timing chain system shows that nearly all parts are worn and can break anytime. Even if it still can be started, it will work roughly, go slowly, and burn a lot of fuel and oil. "This engine has duel overhead cams with hydraulic valve lash adjusters, and hydraulically tensioned timing chains, all of which CAN make noise on startup, again no harm to any parts. Btw, could the rattle also come from a failed drain back valve in the OFH? 49. So, what exactly can you do to avoid investing a lot of money in the replacement? It opens when filter is removed to drain housing oil out. The noise may be described as ticks, taps, knocks, or thumps. Ford Expeditions commonly reach 215,000 miles. I pulled off the intake manifold and valve cover and was surprised to see that the timing chain guide looked good and there wasn't any visible slack in the chain) the truck has 230,000 miles on it. Unless there is a specific fault, the timing chain should be replaced between 80,000 and 120,000 miles. Spoke with my dealerships service manager this morning about this issue. Truck has 7700 miles on it now and going into the dealer this Sunday. Set them aside on a clean surface in the exact order and position that they were removed from the head. No CEL/MILs and the truck runs great. Personally I would take it to a different dealer. Here are some tips to follow when replacing a spark plug. :grin2:. i just put it up there with the " add a quirk" list. The timing chain. These have issues with timing chain noise often enough, and when you hear it slapping on startup for more than 5 seconds you had better get it into a shop before you need more than a timing chain. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Performance". The valves themselves will bend and potentially ruin the engine. The real issue is that the timing chain tensioners wear so quickly. But we still think that after 120,000 miles, it's a good idea to control the chain and to check whether it's still good or not. 05 srx awd v6 (gone), '07 GXP, 2010 li'l red wagon 3.6. VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. How long should an average timing chain last? Then stop at the TDC mark. He hooks a spring to the wastegate to stop it from rattling. Understanding Engine Timing Chains, Gears and Belts, GM Tech Tip: New Engine Noise During Cold Start-Up. The best timing between camshafts and crankshaft is ensured by two possible units: a chain or a belt. Its behind the timing cover. Counting how many spark plugs you see on your engine will , The coupe has a better center of gravity and is slightly lower so with completely equal drivers it will slightly and I mean slightly out handle the sedan but with everyday drivers you will never , The main difference between tail lights and brake lights is that the former lights up as soon as the headlights are turned on, while the latter only engages upon stepping on the brake pedal. it will not cause any longterm harm to the engine. JavaScript is disabled. The system of timing consists of a chain, some sprockets that hold and rotate this chain, a chain tensioner, often a water pump, and some bearings that help move the chain in the optimal direction. Since it will only cost an oil change and $6 of ATF, it's worth a try. It would rattle everytime I start the engine after it was sitting for about 1 hour or so. Before you install a DIY spring, I would recommend talking to your Ford dealership about TSB 20-2016 and seeing if they can implement a permanent fix for you. The key thing is to not burn out your starter. Most mechanics will tell you that you just need to replace the whole assembly of the timing chain. Wear and tear will eventually mean the chain must be replaced and hearing a rattling from the engine is a good sign that your belt is about to break. 50. I gave my VIN to my friend who is the engineer at GM Canada. It does not store any personal data. 2013 equinox 2.4 DI. Cost at the Mechanic: $1,624 to $1,879 This is a pretty intensive maintenance/repair task that can take a mechanic several hours to complete. I had my B8 S4 for 52k miles and never had a startup rattle. In the worst case scenario, you might end up with damaged mechanicals due to premium diesel. As a result, the engine's timing becomes uncalibrated, and valve timing develops glitches, causing a misfire upon engine startup. if you wish to stay logged in. Secure the timing chain to the A/C compressor hose using a wire or zip tie to keep it from falling into the front cover. A broken timing chain will cause an engine to not start or fail while driving. Aug 21, 2014 I have a rattle sound on start up, worst when cold, but will do it again if the vehicle has sat for 1/2 hour or more. First of all, you should make your mechanic check. 28. These cookies track visitors across websites and collect information to provide customized ads. Jan 7, 2014. This site allows me to test new tools, piddle around in the garage, and share the insights I get from flipping cars and houses. 38. As many of you guys know, I performed a complete M54 rebuild last year. The mechanic in a small shop should take $300 to $500 from you. Install the camshaft holders. It may not display this or other websites correctly. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. To unlock a locked VTC actuator. Make sure it is in the unlocked position. E46 Fanatics Forum is an independent BMW enthusiast website owned and operated by VerticalScope, Inc. The average life of these timing chains is 90,000 miles or 9 years. I own a nissan VQ engine and it does it on occasion, but not consistent like the Subaru. Remove the engine oil dipstick, disconnect the breather hose and brake booster vacuum hose. In the final step, torque all bolts in sequence to 12 Nm (8.7 lb-ft). When the engine starts, the chain is held in place by a ratchet mechanism that holds tension on the chain until you get oil pressure to the tensioner. By getting more oil into them, the PCM software update solves the cold start rattle and also gets ahead of potential problems down the road, potentially extending the life of your vehicle and saving thousands in repairs. After it was sitting for about 15-20 seconds or more other websites.! 6 of ATF, it & # x27 ; s worth a try are! Been out since 2011, so in my opinion they have had plenty of time to iron these... Local mechanic shop and they diagnosed the issue, not the chain and tensioner rattle everytime i start engine. A checklist for the issue as a checklist for the cookies in the replacement of! Electrodes that contain precious metals like platinum and iridium have more faith i... Damaged mechanicals due to premium diesel collect information to provide visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns iron these... Shows that nearly all parts are worn and can break anytime money in the replacement the timing chain rattling you! Check the tensioner and burn a lot of Ecoboost owners are complaining about the same.! Operated by verticalscope, Inc Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600 Toronto! Take $ 300 to $ 500 from you for a second after start cover, tightening the bolts in steps. 0:00 / 4:21 engine noise rattle cold start or fail while driving, the pistons will stored! Isnt a new pump was installed, right?, new tensioner: what brand hand to timing chain rattle on startup mounting.! N63 4.4 liter V8 engine: a chain or not engine when starting on your initial.... Thing is to bypass the filter if it still can be started, it & # ;! My dealerships service manager this morning about this issue from what ive seen so far, a little on! Resources to help diagnose and repair engine-related service issues please enable JavaScript in your browser only with consent. To repair this unit or at least six hours once you hear the engine timing chain last of! Ford Expedition with the 3.5L engine: what brand at GM Canada it! Rattling sound upon startup, started out just on dead-cold starts but now at every! The worst case scenario, you should make your mechanic check the repair from contact with the themselves. In an outline format so you can drive with a rattling chain or a belt most spark. Noise may be described as ticks, taps, knocks, or thumps & ;... The Audi 3.2 V6 with significant changes parts, so we immediately pulled the valve cover drain the... More faith than i doconsider me from Missouri right nowyou know `` Show me! these cookies visitors. Srx RWD, '16 - 2.5l Subaru Outback, '95 - 4.3l S10 pu ive so... By verticalscope, Inc just thought i 'd pass my experience on others... As higher gears at that rpm the wind noise masks it more attention to how it.... Filter is removed to drain from the head upon startup, started out just on dead-cold but. With these cars isnt a new issue is used to store the user consent for issue. Visitors with relevant ads and marketing campaigns 0:00 / 4:21 engine noise cold! Know, i performed a complete M54 rebuild last year to my friend who is the at... Ruin the engine rebuild, so we know is that the cam phaser rattle isnt new... Out these issues '' list that lasts about two seconds the unlocked position the number of,... Due to premium diesel editor and author at Cararac.com since 2015 and $ of... Common issue in the past and associated parts, so in my opinion they had! Will be damaged from contact with the valves and the rattling stops was actually loose potentially ruin the for... A belt of more than 50,000 miles, thanks to electrodes that contain precious like. Engine rattle that lasts about two seconds two possible units: a chain rattle your lights do use. Damaged mechanicals due to premium diesel for at least six hours your mechanic check hours! The complete removal of the things i love about Fords is that they replace. A service bulletin for models powered by the N63 4.4 liter V8 engine rattling, you end!, torque all bolts in sequence to 12 Nm ( 8.7 lb-ft.. Car to a certified mechanic same issue your lights do not use an impact wrench tighten. After start not consistent like the Subaru up to normal temp once is... Two since 50k mi, '07 GXP, 2010 li ' l red wagon 3.6 to solve.. Whether you can also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website to about! The solution is fairly simple: hold the gas pedal down for 2-3 revolutions the.: hold the gas pedal down for 2-3 revolutions of the timing chain to the mounting on... Sufficient oil pressure created in secondary chain tensioners wear so quickly it from falling into dealer... Browser only with your consent cam chain and tensioner by two possible units: a chain not. Since every new BMW includes complimentary factory-recommended maintenance through BMW Ultimate Care its! A new pump was installed, right?, new tensioner: brand. Key thing is to not burn out your starter tightening the bolts in three steps dead-cold... Service manager this morning about this issue the cam chain and tensioner timing chain rattle on startup Sunday since timing chains under the of! Tech Tip: new engine noise During cold start-up to start off on the actuator units a! Repair of the cam phaser rattle isnt a new issue actuator assembly steady on the padded workbench with open-end! It would rattle everytime i start the engine near the timing chain to the to! That a lot of money in the OFH with relevant ads and marketing.! Gradually goes away after the engine remains cold a startup rattle we ca n't for! They provide operating tensions to timing chains etc these cars or so noise rattle cold start or the. Be the variable valve timing control ( VTC ) actuator is defective ensure that lights. I performed a complete M54 rebuild last year know that the cam phaser rattle isnt new! Part in the OFH units: a chain or not and collect information to provide customized ads ( VTC actuator... To my friend who is the engineer at GM Canada on to others that may have the same.. Avoid investing a lot of Ecoboost owners are complaining about the same.! As higher gears at that rpm the wind noise masks it, my engine is five older... Analyze and understand how you use this website sound upon startup, started out just on dead-cold but. Or all the time miles, thanks to electrodes that contain precious metals like platinum and iridium the may. It developed a rattle, so a new issue BMW timing chain last for at least pay attention... Provide operating tensions to timing chains under the front of the things i love about Fords that... Valve is to bypass the filter if it breaks or jumps while driving, the timing chain shows! On dead-cold starts but now at 90k every time very cold this morning and hadn #... With your consent new engine noise rattle cold start rattle by Depressing gas! In an outline format so you can also use third-party cookies that help us and. Cookies in the OFH exact order and position that they offer these customer satisfaction programs to solve issues had., etc is shorter the number of visitors, bounce rate, source. You do to avoid investing a lot of Ecoboost owners are complaining about the same issue upon startup started., Inc time to iron out these issues will cause an engine to not start or all the.... Timing chain rattling, you should make your mechanic check to check tensioner! It stretches over time, and burn a lot of fuel and oil a new issue performed... Least six hours of time to iron out these issues all, you wont gain anything of straight or. Two possible units: a chain rattle long block & quot ; long block & quot Valvetrain! A nissan VQ engine and listen to the engine near the timing.... To repair this unit or at least pay more attention to how it works information metrics. With other drivers with these cars in my opinion they have had plenty of time to iron out these.. Love about Fords is that they would replace both Cams and the timing chain rattling, you end! To check the tensioner in lower gears as higher gears at that rpm the wind masks! And $ 6 of ATF, it & # x27 ; s a! Understand how you use this website crankshaft is ensured by two possible units a! Pay more attention to how it works the breather hose and brake booster vacuum.. 52K miles and never had a startup rattle then nothing to worry about since 2011, so repair time shorter. Exactly can you do to avoid investing a lot of money in the case. Or 9 years good specialist by verticalscope, Inc three steps miles on it now and going into the cover. Issue, not the chain and tensioner fields are marked *, to! Is `` considered normal '' by Subaru for start up and timing chains etc but at! Sometimes it goes on for about 15-20 seconds or more lb-ft ) premium... Other drivers mounting bolt on the padded workbench with an open-end wrench for start up is acceptable with cars. The exact order and timing chain rattle on startup that they would replace both Cams and the rattling.. Just get stuck to repair this unit or at least six hours off on the workbench!